Rachel Weisz and Alice Birch on adaptingDead Ringersand the gynecologist siblings that keep us coming back.
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This conversation contains a specific, detailed discussion ofDead Ringers,including the finale, andall kinds of spoilers.
In other words, its twins all the way down.
The whole thing sprung from a daydream Weisz had in early 2020.
And more recently I thought,Oh … what if?
What prompted you to remakeDead Ringers?Rachel Weisz:Im often just kicking about daydream ideas.
When I was younger, gynecologists were men, and theyre now women.
I mentioned this to Sue Naegle at Annapurna.
Sometimes you just say things to people who can make things happen and they look back at you blankly.
But she liked it.
And then I asked Alice if she was interested.
Did you already know one another?
Revolt, which is very unusual.
And Id seenLady Macbeth, in which shed written an incredible performance for Florence Pugh.
I found it really startling.
What was that first conversation like?
Somebodys always got a martini glass.
Its glamorous, its relaxing.
I thought,Thatd be really fun to write and imagine that.
And we talked about doctors.
That seemed like an extraordinary thing for somebody to say, even though its true.
So I thought,Maybe these two women have some sort of godlike powers.
But I hadnt seen the film until right before we spoke.
And I thought the film was wild, frightening, and mad.
I thought,I dont understand this at all.
What was it that struck you about the film, Rachel?RW:The psychological complexity.
Its such a fertile zone for drama.
Jeremy Irons is phenomenal.
Ive rarely seen a woman on film just say, Yeah, Im a complete mess.
Shes so knowing, so intelligent about her dysfunction.
Thats why we calledBritne Oldfords character Genevieve, as an homage.
Why do you think this story has been told so many times, in so many different mediums?
What is it about these twins?RW:Identical twins in general theres something uncanny and fascinating there.
Everybody is drawn to them.
We actually met a woman who had been delivered by the real twins.
So much of what happens gynecology-wise on the show seems like sci-fi but is surprisingly possible.
We did so much research.
In the writers room, every day someone would come in and be like, Female sperm!
Someone is trying to develop female sperm!
Fromcells from the female body.
AB:Its so far away.
But that its even being imagined and discussed by scientists, that was so exciting.
And they said, Bodies.
People to experiment on.
RW:Lambs in bags!
AB:Thats very advanced neonatal medicine.
RW:Can you gene-edit a living persons genes?
I cant remember how you do that.
Im not a scientist.
AB:And then weve all read it that the maternal mortality rates are so high.
And prior to filming, I shadowed two obstetricians and observed a number of births.
Had you ever seen anyone give birth before that?RW:No.
I got very hot, very adrenalized from it.
Even though a baby is born every second or maybe 40 per second?
You cant believe that a human is coming out of somebodys body.
Its more the midwives who attend the births, and the obstetricians are there in case something goes wrong.
The second, I saw just a midwife and gave birth at home.
Obviously, in the States, its all so tied up in insurance and anxiety about things going wrong.
I dont know if the twins go down the route that I think is right.
Beverly is very compromised by taking moneyfrom the Parkers.
But there are people in the States who are making changes in small, powerful ways.
RW:We did meet two obstetricians who have dreams of opening a birthing center in Manhattan.
And theyre not political agitators; theyre just brilliant doctors.
So I think there are plans afoot in the city for some change.
I was fascinated by the overall conversation the show has around menopause.
Beverly is pushing to change the language, the social norms around it.
Elliot wants to implant the ovarian tissue and stop it completely.
Elliots science is not yet available, but choice is always good.
AB:The world is probably closer to Elliots opinion.
And feminism is increasingly about women and choice.
But that often comes at the cost of other women who are nowhere near that choice.
Theres a trickle-down effect that does harm, probably.
But were all complicit.
So thats said without judgment.
RW:Did you follow the beauty of that line of thought?
Therearewomen who wont have access to that.
AB:Thats the joy of writing this show.
My brain works in those loops.
Come back and reassess.
There are roles for women in all of their different decades now.
There is, of course, still an aesthetic pressure on people to stay slim and young.
I dont have anything particularly original to say on the topic, but I do think its getting better.
AB:I dont know.
Its hard to assess.
It still feels like the same white dudes are in charge.
In some ways its improved, but its so complicated.
Its such a system and an industry where youre conscious that for many people, it doesnt feel better.
And it still feels like its remarked upon that we talk about womens stories that thats the frame.
RW:Its like, What about pandas stories?
It makes you feel excluded from the storytelling culture, which youre not.
For me, it goes without saying.
For me, personally, these are the best roles Ive ever had in my career, withDead Ringers.
Youve also said that this was the most challenging job of your entire career.
Because they go through so many things over the course of a day.
AB:I think creatively, that must be bananas.
And technically, in really simple terms, we just dont have time to do another take.
In a twinning shot, we have to pick a hero take.
And then she goes back and plays the other twin.
RW:The whole crew had to shift between twins an incredible group of technicians.
There was so much work.
The swaps became like a team sport.
And you were being paparazzied while you were filming, too.RW:Oh, yes.
Youve just got to block it out.
Theres a quote in the show: Do you ever lose yourself inside the characters youre playing?
Did you feel that way?RW:Im thinking of Elliot saying, TheACtress!
I do lose myself totally, between action and cut.
Its a great delight to get lost.
Particularly with this kind of writing.
But then at cut!
You dont ever take any of it home with you?RW:Not now, no.
So I used to think I had to stay in character.
But for me, that wasnt good for my acting or my life.
It made both pretty bad.
Also, I have a family.
So I wouldnt be able to function.
What were your touchstones for each character?
Id often sing a song to myself to move around.
Beverly is really still.
Shes in touch with her interior life in a way that Elliot isnt.
Elliot is more free and Beverly is more tortured.
But Elliot is exhausting.
What was all of the eating like, as Elliot?
But I couldnt, because we shot early and I get low blood sugar.
I have to be well fueled.
So it wasnt like, Oh, God.
It was always Elliot, delighted to have a burger.
I want to talk about developing the shows tone.
That could easily fail tonally.
We wanted these characters to be complicated and to be on the extreme.
They are themostbrilliant, themostsuccessful women working in their field.
You feel it when youre writing the rhythm, the precision.
When we were shooting it, up until that point, Elliot had been having a lot of fun.
AB:You were.
You were like, I am having fun!
Im taking drugs on a rooftop.
I think things are changing for Elliot.
I was like, I dont think so!
I was trying to hold on.
I was feeling what Elliot was feeling: She doesnt know how to navigate dark things.
She was taking drugs with someone who was getting into her headspace, and nobody gets into Eliots head.
But Agnes really does.
Jennifer Ehle, who plays Rebecca Parker, gets some of the most delicious dialogue in the show.
Like when she says, That all feels very vegetarian.RW:Shes so good.
Rebecca is really a bad person, but you just want to be near her all the time.
Shes so unapologetic about who she is and what she wants.
Its so refreshing to see a woman who has real power in the world.
Its such an overused phrase strong female characters.
I always think of, like, weight lifters or something.
But she has immense power.
Through lobbying, shes running the show, and we dont even get to see any of that.
Usually men are in those positions.
Who was the inspiration for that character and family?AB:We talked about the Sacklers.
The Tetra Pak family.
Both me and Susan Stanton had written onSuccession,so we talked about that family quite a bit.
Poppy said that last night.
I hadnt imagined that.
But you only kill Beverly, and Elliot assumes her identity.
Why?AB:We knew how it was going to end from really early on.
RW:Someone asked me, What about the babies?
Elliot could have a preschool or day care down there in the lab.
Thats season two.AB:It felt too tragic to kill them both.
Plus, its the ultimate twin swap.
Elliot is the person who has done more damage.
She cant bear it.
That always felt right.
Do you think Elliot has fooled Genevieve at the end?RW:What do you think?
I dont think shes actually fooled because she could always tell them apart, even when they swapped.
But I think she wants to believe; she wants to be fooled.AB:Yes.
RW:Yeah, that sounds right.
And cleverly calls out the viewer for even wondering.AB:It felt important to claim it up front.
Its such a male fantasy, and it felt good to have fun at Larrys expense.
What was your internal belief about the twincest?
Because its murky.AB:I love that question.
And Id love to keep it murky.
But you played them, Rachel, so …?
RW:Well, I dont want to be a fantasy blocker.
What was your feeling?
And in the book, they explicitly do.RW:With a woman, too?
No, just the two of them.RW:Id conveniently forgotten that!
How does anyone know?
Well, we dont know about the original real-life twins.
Just the twins in the novel.RW:Wow.
Id blocked that out.
We can keep it murky.
Its sort of the final taboo, and the show has such an interesting relationship with taboo.
If they hadnt been up for it, I think they wouldnt have bought the show.
And Im aware of what were doing.
I want people to feel okay.
But writing something and making something is often quite private and self-indulgent.
Its about whatwewere interested in, and I really wanted to see that onscreen.
It looks the way it should, and its really authentic.
Like Rachel said, it happens all the time; its how we all get here.
AB:And inThis Is Gonna Hurt,on BBC, does do some of that, too.
And Beverlys queerness became essential to who she was, very early on.
But then a couple of scenes later, Elliot crawls onto the table where they were just having sex.
How much of that was deliberate versus coincidence?
Ive played opposite many, many, many men in really interesting stories.
I just hadnt done this before until more recently.
And its been … interesting.
But of course it changes everything.
I think there are like, two or three male characters on the show.
Was that purposeful?RW and AB:No!
AB:They just kept not showing up.
RW:There was never a mandate.
We just wanted to do something neither of us had done before.
Rachel, how familiar are you with your queer female fan base?RW:[Laughs.
]Im not really online or on social media.
But Poppy Liu, who plays Greta, was telling me a bit last night.
She was explaining terminologies.
Like what?RW:I dont remember all the words now.
But she knows all the words of everything to do with queer culture and types of queerness.
Im a bit ignorant in this department, to be honest.
Can I show you something I think you will find amusing?RW:Okay.
Are you familiar with the site Reductress?RW:No.
Its sort of a feminist Onion.
]Oh, wow.
Whats a cupping mug?
[Laughs loudly]Oh, thats very funny.
Its lovely to be in peoples dreams.
Fantasy life is a beautiful thing, right?
And everyones got one.
