The super-producer has spent three decades perfecting the art of collaboration.
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If youre a prodigious reader of liner notes, youve probably seen Jon Brions namesomewhereover the last 30 years.
Like Aimee Manns 2000 albumBachelor No.
(Brion self-released the album in 2001 and never made another solo project.)
What got you thinking aboutMeaninglessthis year?Dont blame me.
Blame Bobb Bruno fromBest Coast, who I love.
It wasnt something I was instigating.
It barely came out in the first place.
The first five songs have some low end on them now.
To a musician, its things like that that matter.
Like, it doesnt sound entirely like an AM radio.
What informed the sound of that record?
I got signed in the mid-90s and already, by that point, had produced a few records.
I ended up, on those first records, playing a lot of instruments.
I had a period of playing as a session musician.
They ended up keeping everything.
And people liked listing every last corkscrew used as a percussion instrument on the record.
I just hated it.
Thats actually an important story about how this record started.
I got my favorite musicians in town to come in.
I built a studio in the basement of the house I was living in.
I had Jim Keltner and Greg Lee Benmont Tench and Matt Chamberlain by, great people.
At the same time, I was doing these very left-field improvisational shows every week in Los Angeles.
But the record company hated it.
One song survived with a lot of overdubs added.
They literally told us to stop working.
I did for a little while.
I went back to other people I was producing.
I think I was making the second Fiona Apple record at the time.
A few months go by and they go, Why havent we heard anything?
I mightve literally laughed.
You told me and the guy I was working with to stop working.
Now you want to hear more.
What was your problem with the first batch?
The only thing I could glean from it was they didnt think it had enough energy.
It was the classic 90s record company:We dont hear an obvious single.
They couldve said that.
I was a professional record producer.
You hear it all day long.
I took a few weeks, put some songs together, sent them.
I didnt hear back for a few weeks, rarely a good sign.
Eventually, I think I called and said, Was that better?
The only answer I got is, Yeah, its a bit better.
I sent in another five, six songs.
At this point, Ive sent over two albums worth.
Tepid would be too much credit.
I was finishing Fionas record and I get a call.
Out of exasperation, they said, Make something you like and well put it out.
Great sense of encouragement.
I did say, Ive been sending you things I liked.
Well, just hand it in.
I would make these rough mixes to send them.
I picked five rough mixes.
Theyre just rough mixes I did very quickly to send to the record company.
I went, Okay, theres the first half of the record.
Put them on side two, where none of them are in danger of being singles.
Record companies, in those days, didnt care.
I finished off the rest of the record in ten days.
Two were recorded from scratch: Hook, Line, and Sinker and Same Mistakes.
Aimee was getting kicked around different labels.
Did you just feel disillusioned with the whole system?
The very early 90s were good.
The early good electronic-music stuff at that moment was getting signed.
Bjork makes her first record.
Hip-hop takes this turn, and Dr. Dre hits his stride, and great shit starts happening.
It takes the turn where successful records can suddenly sell 10 million copies.
I talked to record business people who had very successful artists at the time selling 2 million records.
The attitude was,Howd we only sell two million?This record shouldve sold 10 million.
I was around for a lot of those conversations.
Aimee changed labels I dont know how many times.
It was something extraordinary.
Did that affect me?
So that was lovely.
But did a lot of the people I liked actually feel like they had a chance of getting through?
It doesnt mean you dont try.
You could have a hundred fucking shitty, faceless rock bands fronted by guys.
They knew what they were trying to promote to the world and what was working.
Something about the initial records connected with the public in a good way.
And the great thing about the 90s is there are a lot of cases where that happened.
A lot of people who the world at large maybe wouldnt have thought would be internationally beloved got through.
So I actually really liked the era for that, but it could be a slog.
As a producer and even with movies its like,Youre the artsy guy.Theres nothing left field here.
It just maybe doesnt sound like whats currently being done by other people.
I like a lot of unpopular pop music.
YourEternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mindscore was sampled by the rapper Jay Electronica.Yeah, I loved that.
I thought it was quite cool.
And Kanye came around.
Now, youre in rooms with Frank Ocean and Beyonce.
Youve worked on some pretty successful records after being told your album didnt have hits.Thats just been my circumstance.
I dont necessarily mind that.
Thats really not the case.
I actually just like a ton of different music.
I like a ton of rather forward-thinking stuff and also a lot of stuff thats really old-fashioned.
Im a Billie Holiday obsessive.
So all that stuff is quite dear to me.
Its other peoples hang-ups that would make that a surprise to them.
You worked on BeyoncesLemonade.
Is it trippy keeping that secret?The Beyonce thing was just fun.
Beyonce is one of the people big enough to do it.
I was psyched to take part and know about it.
Thats my normal work life.
Its a private world to start with, and I like that.
Some of its really easy.
Think about how most artists start.
Its a private thing in their bedrooms.
Im curious: You worked onHard EightandMagnoliawith Paul Thomas Anderson.
By the timePunch-Drunk Lovecomes along, it seems like you have an incredible understanding of each others art.
Fifteen years later, were still waiting for a new PTA and Jon Brion project.There may be one.
Weve done a few things.
We did live-theater-y things around town.
Hes got a great thing going with Jonny Greenwood.
I dont see an issue with that as long as good work is getting done.
Im not an unsatisfied fan.
Also, artists arent, for the most part, supposed to be monogamous.
Theres one thing weve talked about that would be for a future film.
So one never knows.
You were around for Frank OceansBlondealbum.
I said, Just sing into it because its going to do this other stuff.
He just starts singing and improvising.
What he was interested in at the time was studio experimenting.
Hed do one take of vocals and he kept having different people try different things.
Totally his idea?Yeah.
I always wished we got more recordings of you and Elliott Smith.
He honored that, which is great.
Im a fan of the work.
It was all very cliche and very heartbreaking.
At the point when we were going to work together, he was randomly capable.
Hes absolutely one of the best songwriters in the last 30, 40 years.
We spent a lot of time together laughing.
That doesnt mean one doesnt hurt or one doesnt feel uncomfortable.
People relate to them because most of us feel the same way, to a certain extent.
I can tell you that some pain causes you to do work.
People get their hearts broken and write some songs or paint a bunch or get really angry.
Then people who only hear the venting about bad feelings think thats the whole person.It depends.
Its not like what youd see in the movies, these horrible musician biopics.This is the dark period.
Thats closer to the truth than any of these movies will ever get.
The act of writing about it is the therapy session and the private cry.
That became endlessly complicated.
Ive been approached about the original version coming out.
I need all the correct components.
And I actually think it was very good work.
The stuff that leaked isnt finished.
It isnt a proper representation.
I think it was rough mixes I made after different experiments with woodwind sections and things.
All the parts were on there at once so I could study.
I only made the mixes because the record company insisted on hearing something.
What came out isnt the thing.
Somebody else mixed their own version and chose random things to keep off or on.
As mythical as that one got, its really common.
Id say only about a third of the stuff I work on actually gets to come out.
Im not a fan of the sound of a lot of the popular music mixing over the last decade.
I dont want to get too technical, but its too overcompressed.
The drums all sound the same.
The vocals all sound the same.
These are two places where there can be a lot of uniqueness.
I think the record Billie Eilish and her brother made, that first record, stands out.
There are things that actually sound different.
And she is incredibly humane and smart.
She has the gift.
A streaming audience isnt necessarily getting the best sound quality in the first place.Oh God, no.
Every time the companies want to sell us something phones and computers and speakers theyll up the resolution.
Thatll be one more selling point.
Weve had ways of making digital audio sound great for 20 years.
People being able to have more apps was more the important selling point.
Record companies dont care as long as they resell catalogues.
