The actress and writer of mystical sci-fi likeThe OAreturns with something fleshier: a murder-mystery series.
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Marling and Batmanglij disappeared, creatively speaking, for a few years.
This month, theyre back withthe miniseriesA Murder at the End of the World.
And the better we do our jobs, the less you notice.
I was surprised by how narratively straightforward this show is.
With everything else youve done, theres some metaphysical or supernatural twist.
Rather than, Actually, there are things we could be solving now.
Which part of this story came to you first?The idea of Darby.
When you think about mysteries or detective stories, the language we use is private eye.
Its literally the world according to someones POV what they notice or dont notice as they observe things.
So much so that theres never another POV in the show; youre never not with Darby.
The intelligences or the skills that come along with that are things we havent admired for very long.
Were really into reason or rational thinking.
It sounds like youre saying that now youve done that with Darby?This is my first time trying.
Its so easy to make something science fiction.
Its very hard to critique violence against women without putting violence against women onscreen.
How can you talk about something without showing it?
That image for everybody, in a terrible way, is darkly arousing.
It provides this nuclear reactor of energy that powers so much of our storytelling.
LikeCarmen Sandiego.Remember her red hat, low over one eye, and her dark hair?
I cannot believe how much Carmen Sandiego probably informs this show.
Why does everything go back toCarmen SandiegoandOregon Trail?
I still sometimes will be showering and think,What if my axle wheel breaks?
Like, what will I trade?
Its a helpful paradigm.Exactly.
Nobody tells you when youre small that life is just about endlessly fording the river.
So the narrative for Darby is not self-contained?
Theres a world where theres another series?Definitely.
We dreamt of a world for her, so theres a lot psychologically that she could navigate.
But we were very satisfied with this seven hours and would be so happy to leave it there.
I thinkThe OAwas ahead of its time, and this is a bit more on time.
All of your work feels a little prescient.
We wanted to try and write a tech billionaire who didnt feel two-dimensional.
Is he into space?
Is he into holographic reality?
AI seemed interesting to us.
Theyd be like, Whats a large language model?
Whats a deep fake?
ChatGPT came out as we were editing.
We were like, Huh.
That was strange, to watch something you thought was science fiction and watch it become science present.
Suddenly these female Iranian activists were everywhere.
He walked me downstairs and opened the fridge and Coca-Cola had just released a coffee-Coke drink.
Just, like, go sleep and dream?
Id love that job.
But youre kind of doing that.
Youre tapping into something.I think we all have that.Kids have that; theyre really tapped in.
Which, interestingly, is what these large language models are.
I dont know, man.
In western culture we live from the neck up.
But actually, all this stuff, from the neck down, came first.
I find that idea mind-blowing.
Can I tell you something embarrassing?
WhenThe OAgot canceled, I cried for like an hour.
Whats so sad is we even cried with our executives.
AndOA,despite its huge and loyal following, just fell in that gap.
But I think about it all the time.
And some part of me I dont feel that its ended.
In my mind I understand that its ended.
But in my body I feel like its something that has gone dormant.
If the right conditions and circumstances come again, it will grow.
I really do think that.
What legally or logistically has to happen?
That said,Twin Peakscame back after a period of time.
Its not legally impossible.
Zal and I talk about it.
There will be a moment and well be like, This is soThe OA.
And well file it away.
I couldnt believe I hadnt seen it.
Because I loveMulholland Drive.
And then you cast Josie in this show!
Joan Chen.Isnt she amazing?
From another era somehow.
The crazy thing is that I didnt even realize she was Josie until after it was over.
So I never got to be like, Josie, talk to me.
Tell me all the secrets!
Tell me about being a drawer knob!Yeah, exactly: Tell me about being a drawer knob.
So it has to come from people.
The same way the changes afoot in Hollywood right now had to come from labor.
I think we all know that now.
Then the question becomes: What do we do?
We have to address it and do what we can to make the weight and consequence of it felt.
We actually made this story in climate crisis.
You almost died on set, right?I got hypothermia.
I thought hypothermia was just, you get a little trembly or something.
But actually when you get severe hypothermia, the blood leaves your brain.
Your cognition shuts down, so you come into a childlike state in your mind.
The blood is rushed into your heart to keep your heart pumping.
The heart is the most vital organ, which is kind of poetic and beautiful.
And we were already up against it because of COVID.
By the time we landed, COVID was like [exploding sound].
There are homes in London now that are mansions underground: networks, basketball courts, swimming pools.
I dont know when theyre gonna realize that were being so much more subversive than anyone thought.
Should we tell them this?
To gather people in a group to resist together.
This was the first thing youve made thats not starring you.
You have a big role, but Lee is not the protagonist.
Why?I kept wanting to direct duringOA,but there was no way to do it.
So I felt like,Okay, I want to direct.
So many photo references and color palettes and swatches and finding Louise Bourgeoises to fill the hotel.
Directing feels like youre taking the world-building part to its ultimate conclusion.
Gen Z, unlike our millennial generation, never bought into the con of, like, capitalism.
I was shocked to realize you hadnt directed TV before.
Because I was writing, showrunning, and acting.
It just felt unfathomable to take on another job.
Of course your biorhythms are off.
The job has an extremism about it.
Wed have to basically make television.
But we really havent made television weve made eight-hour films or novels that are so handmade.
The blazer is cut like this; the pants are cut like this.
The master tailor makes the pilot and then is like, Here are the patterns.
Maybe theyll come in as an executive producer in six months.
Theres a writers room thats going, and they pass the script off to people who are already shooting.
But Zal and I are like, Lets make the pattern.
Now were also going to make the thread by hand.
Were gonna cut out every suit and stitch it ourselves by handno sewing machines.
But we didnt have the factory-assembly model down.
We hadnt been trained in that formula as filmmakers.
In truth, the scene in a whodunit where the detective interviews the guest should be chapter two.
Even then, theyre only answering them because a man is sitting next to her on the sofa.
The misogyny is deeper and more entrenched than we realize.
Do you feel that way in pitch rooms dismissed?
Does being there with Zal give you a sort of credibility to men?Oh, Im sure.
It was like I wasnt even there.
At the end theyd direct questions to him.
Zal noticed, because hes incredibly sensitive to these things.
So he said, Lets do a pitch meeting where you say everything and Im silent.
We did that and still, at the end of the meeting, all the questions came to Zal.
At this point we kind of laugh at that.
But also, class and race are a part of this conversation.
Right, because hes a queer man of color.
And I dont even want to judge it.
Why didnt I look her in the eye and seek her approval?
What about now, coming offThe OA?
How are you treated?Because ofThe OAits different for sure.
I think fame is really a toxic substance.
Its a fundamental power imbalance.
Those power gaps are loaded and over time become corrosive.
Its really hard to navigate.
Im trying to have more balance.
I got a dog.
Im walking my dog.
Im planting vegetables in my backyard.
Im trying to root myself more and be grounded and invest in building this reality.
For the whole of my life, Ive slept on a mattress on the floor.
I literally got a bedframe for the first time in my life during the pandemic.
I got a bookshelf.
Theres a rug on the floor.
Granted, most of these things came from set.
I walked off set and asked, Can I take this home with me?
Im being told that Im lacking deeply in nesting and other maternal instincts.
I need to pull this shit together real quick because I aint young anymore.
There are people on Instagram and on Reddit who literally think that you are the OA.
Does that scare you at all?[Laughs.
]Its scary, I guess, because its like … am I?
Was I blind for a period?
Do I have a Russian father?
No, Im not the OA.As it turns out, no.
Just trying to figure this shit out, man.
But on a different level, there are currents that we just want to keep speaking.
And if one door closes to them, theyll go through another door.
And he put them on and they were very much like Haps.
How do we get out of the boxes we all create for ourselves?
Were always trying to make narratives that feel like an unboxing.
I watchedThe Recordist, one of the first shorts you and Zal made together in 2006.No.
How did you even get that?
Its on YouTube!How did it get on YouTube?
When was the last time you watched it?Whenever it was made!
I havent seen it since.
[Laughs loudly.]
I genuinely forgot about that.
There is a 9/11 twist.
References to Carl Sagan and Ann DruyansGolden Record.
I cant believe its on YouTube.
I had just graduated from college and Zal was at the American Film Institute casting his thesis film.
I was working as a cinematographer in documentaries.
He was like, you oughta be in my film.
I didnt know any better then.
I didnt know what an audience was.
I didnt know what critique was.
It seems like you understand your audience now.
Thats why amateur sleuthdom is such a thing.
People find one another on the internet from all over and get to find community in solving something together.
Thats so delicious and meaningful.
I guess I do feel drawn to that.
Is it a recruiting means for an intelligence service?
Somebody with spare time whos good at puzzles?
Like theCarmen Sandiegogame.It all goes back toCarmen Sandiego.
Where in the world is Carmen Sandiego?
Do you remember that melody?
Didnt they give a shot to do a live-action and it didnt work out?
This is your next project.Who has the rights toCarmen Sandiego?
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